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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was making some call's today following up on a few permit requests that I had sent out and had not herd from yet. At one of the venues we had selected, a gentleman told me we had the date, the paperwork was just not sent out yet.

He then said "let me ask you a question". What do you feel about only fishing till noon? I said "what???" He then proceeded to tell me that there has been alot of complaining about tournaments. We take up all the parking from the pleasure boaters. That went to the whole revenue speech. 3 or 4 people would be in and out of the parking spots that we are "taking up".So only letting tournaments fish till noon might be an option.

I asked him if I could put a time limit on something he liked to do!

We are off the water at 2:00. Thats still 6 to 7 hours of boating daylight after we are gone.

He then asked how much more I would be willing to pay for tournament use permits.

Is the liscense fees, ramp fees, state park fees, and tournament permits not enough? Where's all that money go? Why do we as tournament anglers have to absorbe the price hike, or give up our time on the water?
 

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This is really more of a problem than most people think. If he is mentioning this to you, someone probably already has their mind made up. I know that there is two sides to every stories and that we probably don't understand the pleasure boaters complaints, but this shouldn't even be thinkable. If this does pass, and it is being discussed in many counties, I am going to request that nobody be allowed on the freeways after 3pm because it is to crowded for me.
 

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Which launch site (Lake)? is this?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I thoguth part of the negotiations of the permit law a few years back was that we not be limited to 6 hour (till noon) tourneys. Can anybody else commment?
 

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It is funny how you get different responses from each DNR office on the permit issue. I pull an average of 3-4 permits a year and all the people I talk with seem very polite and coordial in helping me. Some even say that the permit fee is unfair because it is mostly imposed on tournament anglers.

Like JC Cooper said, there are always both sides of the story, but I feel we should have just as much right to the parking spot as the next boater. Maybe even more because we are paying extra. See, this is not about the fishing anymore, it is about the $$$. My question is, how much money are they losing or think their losing by having our trailers in that spot 2 or 3 more hours. It is sad and it does seem like we are singled out.

It won't be long until clubs begin communicatiing with each other and setting up their own launch schedules, by-passing the permit need all together. I know this is not the solution, but it is frustrating. Well, I will get off my soapbox now. Winter blues always bring out the fighten side in me.
I think I need to go buy some fishin' stuff.

George
 

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I would like to know how many boaters that get together for poker runs and such, get these "Use Permits" from the DNR? The permits that we get arre not just for fishing events, they are for any organized event to be held at a DNR launch.

Has any one checked out the boating site that DNR talked about at the last MI Bass Fed meeting? I went onto it to get the number for Bolles Harbor Permit issuer and Lake Erie Metro park and both number were incorrect. Has anyone else noticed this?

This taken from the boating handbook on the dnr website:

"Marine Events In order to hold a race, regatta or tournament you must notify the Michigan Department of Natural Resources at least 30 days prior to the event by calling (517) 373-1230.
If the event is being held on federally controlled waters a permit from the U. S. Coast Guard is required. "
 

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This is a problem. The only way to fight this (if a fight is required) is professionally. We need to find out who the higest level DNR person is so that we can send email, letters and phone calls to voice our opinions and displeasure. Yelling at launch DNR personnel and starting fights with angry boaters isn't going to win any battles or help bass fishermen look like sportsmen. Like Gterrien said, it's all about the $$$$. To bad that there aren't more private launches that need our cash.

Maybe DNR Cory can inform us of any plans to penalize bass fishermen from use of DNR ramps.

Before the DNR penalizes us they better look at everyone including the "jetfleas" which are the biggest nusances. Maybe the DNR should make everyone pull a permit including pleasure boaters, how would that work? It wouldn't. If anyone deserves consideration it's us.

We pay more money than anyone. Pleasure boaters only pay the ramp fee.

We have to schedule our events well in advance and pull permits. Pleasure boaters just show up at the launch on a whim.

We have to stage our events regardless of the weather. Pleasure boaters can just go tomorrow when better weather is predicted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
For the record, this was an inland lake. But a DNR ramp none the less.

Right you are workingman, you can't take it out on ramp personel. And nothing good could come out of having it out with every boat you see that didn't have a fishing rod on it.

It kind of cracked me up....... Ask a guy that just called to check on permit to hold a bass fishing tournament: A) What do you think about putting your rod down 2 to 3 hours early. And
What do you think about forkin over more money.

We as a group (I think) pay more to the state than anybody else. But when we want to keep doing what we enjoy, we have to open our wallets a little farther and dig a little deeper so "everyone" can enjoy the waterways of this great state.

I have no problem paying or paying more. I understand it takes money. But hit everybody, not a select group.
 

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I cant believe I haven't heard a response from Mr. Kimmel on this. If anyone would know how to handle this, if it needs handling, it would probably be him. Dan?
 

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I want to know why this guy asked you to pull off the water early?
Is he getting pressure from somebody above him? If so, who?
Who do we need to talk to?

They already single bass anglers out as a group by charging extra money to have an organized weigh in. It is very unfair to bass anglers who as a group are probably the most responsible boaters on the water.

Not only are they getting extra money from us at the ramp the day of the tournament, you have to take in effect the number of times each angler visits these lakes to practice. Are they going to limit the time a bass guy can practice too!

This is a joke!
 

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From my last post it is clear that I am new to the fishing tournament idea. However, I have some experience when it comes to political restrictions and "anti" agendas that mask themselves behind the government's outcry for more money. The idea that someone can limit the fishing I do with friends, be it in a tournament or not, and ask me to contribute more money to be able participate just because I am in a certain demographic is appalling. There are a few questions I have regarding this…

1. How much do these permit fees generally cost?

2. Does anyone other than tournament anglers get charged such fees?

3. What does the DNR say these fees are for?

4. Has any tournament circuit represented here received complaints from pleasure boaters about the parking taken up at the launch?

5. How long has the DNR been requiring permit fees?

I would really like to get involved here, something doesn't sound right. I agree that fishing and water sports are a precious resource that must be preserved and I have no problem contributing my equal share, but I'll be "monkey's uncle" before I let the government tell me that I have to stop fishing at noon just because I'm fishing with a group of other anglers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
gotanewboat,

I'll answer your questions the best I can:

1)1 to 16 boats.....$10.00, 16 to 30 boats....$25.00 ect.
The more boats expected at the event, the more the
permits cost.
2)As Dowd stated earlier, any organized event should
apply for a permit. Races, Regattas, Fishing
tournaments ect...ect...
I have no idea about any of the other events except
for fishing tournaments though.
3)Good question. I'm going to be making a few phone
calls Tuesday though.
4)In our experiances as a club, we've had a few "run-ins"
rolled eyeballs, and shaken heads. But in my opinion
the boating community as a whole is pleasurable and
often helpfull to each other. As in everything, there
is a select few that screw it all up. We should all
remember: we are all out there to have fun. A little
patience and kindness goes a long way.
5)We formed our club in 1999. Found out thru LSCN
that we needed to get permits before our 2000
season, and have been getting them ever since.

I hope this helps. Congrats on the new boat. Have fun.
 

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We need clarification on this "rule/law" about noon end time on tournaments. I thought this was shot down.....

The fact that we all get different responses in regards to the area we are requesting permits for should be as big of a surprise, but it really isnt. Communication is paramount on issues like these. The fact that we are singled out for holding tournaments also isnt surprising. What would be surprising is that if it really is about money.....why isnt EVERY launch site staffed EVERY day. The loss of revenue on early spring/late summer days or even summer weekdays because no one is at the booth to collect money has to be enormous. I know that at Harley Ensign the booth is empty and the launch is free more times than not.

As far as poker runs/regattas, most of those folks are in the water already. The permit is for the use of the land at a DNR ramp correct? I guess if we weighed in on gull island we wouldnt need permits? Does Jobbie Nooner pull permits for thier organized gathering and use of Gull Island on (I beleive) Corps of Engineering land?

This is a great topic, especially this time of the year.

Mini
 

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Too the other boaters who complain we take up all the ramp spots, get up earlier.

To the DNR that does not like us, don't bite the hand that feeds you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
mini,

As I stated at the start of this thread, he was just questioning me. But, did say it was going to be brought
to a higher level.(It being those two ideas).

I did tell him that paying more would be eaiser to absorbe
as a group, but let him know my displeasure.

As for quiting at noon, I said no way. I told him as far as I was concerned there is still 7 more hours of daylight, we were quiting to early at 2:00 or 3:00.

I agree with you also on the fact of not having anyone at the booths early and late season. I use Bolles harbor quite a bit. I think early in the year I put the boat in 6 or 8 times before I see a body I the booth.
 

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Let me clear a few things up here! I have been pulling more permits per year then any one else I know for ten years now

#1 your tournament is allowed "8" hours that's for check in, fishing, weigh in and clean up. Now most people think the 8 hours is for fishing only (wrong) but most launch's will let you get away with it any ways
#2 no tournament can START between 10:00am and 3:00pm
#3 fees; for "club tournaments is $10 for 1 to 15 boats $25 for 16 to 25 boats any tournament with more then 25 boats and so on OPEN tournaments are $50 for 1 to 50 boats and $100 for 51 to 100 and so on

Prior to this "FEE" process the permits were free and you had to have one for the launch (Use Permit) and one for the water (Marine event permit) this was discontinued and changed the process now only requires the "use permit"

They say the money is for all the paper work they have to do because of the increase in fishing tournament now if you look at the fact that they require less then half the permits they did before it doesn't make since, and now you have marina's holding sail boat race's on lakes that require no permit now (they just go when they want) add to that they have started a new "Must fill out application form" prior to getting a Permit this year creating more problems.

As for the DNR being all about money I can say they are so screwed up it would never be in business if it was a private company. Example We wont mention the name of the launch but last year they made so much money for launch fee's during the winter ice fishing that Lansing called them and asked "Are you sure this is right?" they then told them that they had people at the launch during the week collecting and this got them in trouble for that! *WOW* they then asked if they could keep the part time seasonal help on for an extra 3 weeks stating that they would make even more money, Lansing then answered "NO Let them go" they don't know what they want it's time for a new system!

I say this spring prior to the start of fishing we all drive up to Lansing with our boats and fill the streets around the capital building with trucks and boats clogging up the roads so they can't get any business done that day telling them to stop charging us more then the next guy and spending it on any thing other the our resources!
 

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alex,

you summed it up perfectly!

"dont bite the hand that feeds you"

when you think about how much money we as fisherman put into the sport and how much is then donated back into the state, it does seem foolish to target us.

madman himself
 

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My name is Jason Fleming and I work for the Department of Natural Resources, Parks and Recreation Bureau - Operations Section.

I would like to explain some of the misconceptions out there.

1. There is absolutely no discussion or plan for raising the fee structure for Fishing Tournaments. As far as the DNR employee who asked the boater this, I cannot speak for them nor their reason for posing the question. As for the noon departure, this would only be the case if you started at 4 AM. Here again, there is no discussion or plan to change this. You are entitled to the use of the launch along with the general public as long as it meets the specifications of the Use Permit Policy.

2. One reason the Use Permit policy was updated was to assist field staff with coordinating fees for similar events and activities that are occurring at various locations. The Fishing Tournament fees are separate from the pricing matrix and were not impacted by the new policy. What the Bureau is attempting to do is to identify other organized activities that have not historically been involved in the Use Permit Process. Some of the posters have mentioned that we are attacking the Fishing Tournaments. On the contrary, we are looking into other organized groups that use launches to insure they are in compliance with the current Use Permit Policy (as the fishing tournaments are).

3. The application form has been confusing for both anglers and our staff, but was a necessary component for implementing our Use Permit program. The Parks and Recreation Bureau receive all kinds of requests for organized activities. Some of them are large events that require extra work by our staff and may have potential issues regarding the environment, access to the public, staffing, etc. The Application allows for further review of a proposed event before a decision is made. Generally, all requests for tournaments are approved as long as another group is not scheduled for the same time and date. We may look at doing away with the Application Form for Fishing Tournaments for next year. The application form is available online under the DNR website in the Recreation section. It has the title "Special Use Permit Application" or the direct address is:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/UsePermi...ion_82881_7.pdf

4. The Parks and Recreation Bureau administers over 780 access sites. All Access Sites (outside State Park or Recreation Area boundaries) are staffed when there is an issue of user control. A Land Use Order from the Director must be in place in order for an Access Site to become a Fee Site. This site must warrant enough user traffic to be considered a problem of control and of sufficient volume to offset the cost of labor for staffing. Fee Sites are not intended to be developed for profit. This has to do with the way the legislation is written.

Having an on-site attendant at all of our sites (most locations receive intermittent traffic, even on weekends) would be a poor business practice. We would end up having to subsidize most locations in order to staff these locations if the fees collected do not cover the cost. Again, the reason for having staff at these locations is for control, not revenue generation. Our staff does consider looking into other locations being designated as new Fee Sites or expanding the hours of existing Fee Sites. This was done last year on Lake Macatawa, a location that receives a fair amount of traffic all summer long. An additional shift was added in the afternoon and this worked out very well. We would encourage anyone, if they know of any area that may be suitable for designation as a Fee Site or a location where staffing could be increased, to contact the local Park or Field Office.

5. Winter staffing is an excellent idea. Some units have staffed Fee Sites during peak ice fishing conditions. I am not familiar with the park mentioned in the thread or why they were asked to stop. It would be worth looking into how many Park MVP's are sold in the winter to fisherman.

6. The number for Bolles Harbor on the Michigan Recreational Boating Information System is incorrect and we are looking to update this information. Monroe Field Office has since closed and all requests need to go to Sterling State Park (734 289-2715). This would also be the case for all access sites within Monroe County. There are other locations that are no longer available (ex: Cassopolis FO, now Warren Dunes State Park) that are in the process of being updated.

7. It should also be noted that we received only a small number of complaints (2) about fishing tournaments all of last year. We feel the Fishing Tournaments provide a great activity and wish to continue to have a good working relationship. If anyone has any questions regarding Fishing Tournaments, my phone number is (517) 241-2054 or my email is [email protected]

Jason Fleming
 

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Awesome. Thanks for the reply.
 

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Jason,

Thank you for your input and welcome to the board. I hope your presence will be on going, it sure would help especially in situations like this.

As for having on-site attendants at all locations I understand that would be a bad business practice. You also state that it is not a profit idea, but a controll issue. All of that said, with some of the widely used ramps on Lake St Clair (Harley Ensign PAS for instance) wouldnt it make sense to have someone there more often than the current schedule? I use that ramp almost exclusively and I usually have the $24 tucked away in my wallet to buy my annual sticker on the first launch. Well I can say that I am never alone at that launch (except REALLY early or late in the year) and that I usually launch 10 or 12 times before ever running into someone in the booth to buy my sticker (a loss of 40-48 dollars from me alone if I werent buying a sticker). Perhaps on the busier ramps this could be looked at as a way to generate additional funds to help offset the massive cuts coming from the Governors office.

I also want to mention that if youa re not there early in the year and late in the year you are losing out on the people that put their boats in the water only to park in a slip all summer. With the amount of boats on Clair this would have to amount to offsetting the cost of an employee to man the booth. If I wasnt a fisherman I might volunteer my time to sit there if I could split the proceeds....lol

Thank you agian for representing the DNR on this and helping clear up some misconceptions.

John "Mini" Maniaci
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John,

Good points. At this time, I would have to talk to the Mount Clemens Field Office to get their impression of extending the hours staffed at Harley Ensign. There may be other staffing issues or other factors that have limited the hours for personnel at the launch.

Thanks for the opportunity to post and I will check in from time to time to see if there is any issue that I can help with.
 
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